Do you struggle with doubt? More importantly, what should you do with doubt?
Do you struggle with doubt? More importantly, what should you do with doubt? Let’s talk about Christian doubting and how to wrestle our doubts toward faith instead of away from it. Whether you’re a natural skeptic or have experienced something that feels like an attack on your faith, this episode is for you.
Do you have a question you'd like us to answer? Email us at podcast@austinstone.org.
Hello, friends. Welcome to our first episode of Questioning God, which is a podcast from the Austin Stone that follows our sermon series through the study of the book of Habakkuk.
This season, we're going to follow the prophet Habakkuk as he asks deep, sometimes even brazen questions of God, and we're going to consider how those honest prayers and hard questions might actually deepen our faith. Is questioning God the same as questioning God? And when he gives us the answers to those questions, will it be enough for us to believe? Those are some of the things we're going to be talking about this season. My name is Val Hamilton, and I'm your host, along with my podcast partner in crime, Ross Lester. For those of you who listened to Chasing Shadows, our previous podcast, Ross was the other half, the witty half, I might say, of our dynamic duo. I like to think of him as the Shrek to my donkey, the maverick to my goose. Ross, you have a sharp mind and a soft heart, and I'm so glad to get to do this again with you. Yeah, privilege. Thanks, Phil. Yes, and we also have a new face on the block. It's very exciting, a third co-host who's joining us for this season.
Co-host is strong.
It's going to be fun. He was our favorite guest from last season. He always brought the deepest insights and got the biggest laughs. He's our friend and downtown congregation pastor. Tyler David is in the house. Very honored to join. In the maverick goose equation, where do I, am I Iceman? Yeah, you're definitely Iceman. Great. It's all one. I've only come for that. Yeah, that's right. You did it.
Yeah. We started off strong. It's going to be great. But this does feel like a good lineup. This is going to be fun. I hope it's helpful. It's at least going to be fun. Yes, sir. And what we're going to do, we're going to talk about what the podcast is going to look like here in a second. But I think we need to acknowledge a little bit of the weirdness of the title character's name that we're going to be studying this season. Because it's not a very, it's not a name you interact with a lot in your everyday experience. And depending on where you're from, you know, the flatlands of Garland, Texas, Rallet, or the beaches of South Africa, you might actually hear people say it in a different way. So I'm curious. I say Habakkuk. Ross, what's that? What's your native tongue? How do you pronounce this name?
We would ordinarily say Habakkuk. Habakkuk. Instead of Habakkuk. Habakkuk. Yeah, it would be a much softer A.
It's episode one. I'm already a little offended. That's good. That was my goal. It turns out we're actually probably both wrong. But yeah, that's what we would say. Habakkuk. Have you heard of Habakkuk?
I've heard that. That's also wrong. Habakkuk. What do you say? I say it the way you say it.
Habakkuk. Yes. Habakkuk. Just long back. Habakkuk. Put your back into it. That's exactly right. Habakkuk.
Got to get those vowels out there. Habakkuk. You get it. You're getting it. Well, have you ever met Habakkuk, actually? In real life, no. In your global ministries? You've gone far and wide. Have you met?
No, I've met some biblical names, but not that one. No one introduced their baby Habakkuk to you?
No, no, no. But if we were to have a third child, that's the one. That's their male or female. That's right. That would be their name. That's good. Yeah. I think Habakkuk would be a lovely lady's name. I love that. Well, listen, Habakkuk is not a name that we're super familiar with. It's not one that we use a whole lot. But the questions that Habakkuk asks throughout this book are our real life experiences in the modern day.
And so those are going to be the ones that we follow. But I do want to say this podcast, if you've listened to the things that we've put out in the past, might feel a little different. So I'm going to kick it over to you, Ross, to kind of share with everybody what should they expect about our podcast this season and how might it be similar or different from the last one? Yeah. If you listen to Chasing Shadows, which was our accompaniment to our study in the book of Ecclesiastes, this will feel a little different. There'll be fewer episodes and we're not going to link them directly to sermons as they're preached. And so Chasing Shadows felt like just like a follow on from each week's sermon and a way to process more from that particular sermon. In this one, we hope to kind of more set a framework for Habakkuk's questions and what he takes to God and what we can learn about what we then can take to God.
And so we wanted to set it up more as a framework through which the series can be seen and through which people can ask questions and hopefully have them answered in a helpful way. But it won't follow week by through our study, which is verse by verse through this prophet. It will feel different from that. It's more of a framework than something that's going to follow on.
Yeah. Well, I know, Tyler, you were really excited about this because you were kind of feeling a little bit moved by the big questions that he's asking or things that you hear from your congregants, partners at downtown, we're hearing in our church. These are still very modern experiences.
Well, and I think, you know, there's what the particular text in Habakkuk will cover. And then there's the broader biblical witness of what that question is in every generation.
Yeah, that's right.
There's a context that he's writing from. There's a context that he's thinking about.
And I think for the three of us to get to think from a, because when you're preaching a sermon, there is a lot of responsibility to say what the text says. You can't just go into any given topic.
But these are big, big questions that will require at some level, a ton of personal story, a ton of sort of anecdote that in a sermon is hard to do. And so for us to be able to kind of explore what does it mean or look like fleshed out in more practical terms, fleshed out in more candidly, probably emotional terms, because these questions are not just simple ones to answer.
Right.
There's so many layers to it.
That's right.
Particularly if I'm preaching a sermon, my cutting room floor is not that great. I've given you all the good stuff that I have. At least that's relevant for this sermon that's not going to be a hundred minutes long, though it may feel that way.
You should sometimes try and leave some stuff out.
I've considered that and I thought, no, no.
You got to give the people what they want. So I think that's what I was excited about is taking these big, broad concepts that both for Christians and non-Christians alike, they're the ones that keep you up at night. There's the truths that you know, but then there's the ones that I just rattle around when you're falling asleep or crisis of faith moments. And that's what I love about this book is it really is giving voice to things that I don't, again, back to the being honest, I don't know how honest we are and as honest as this prophet is about how, what we see in the world. So I think, again, it's a great sort of teeing up for us to consider how would we answer these questions in real time, real space with real people. That's all.
We're just people trying to make sense of following Jesus. Right. So that's why I was excited about us getting to do it together for multiple episodes in a row to explore things together and maybe a little bit more depth and texture than we could just do a sermon. Yeah, there is a depth of honesty to the questions that we'll get to. Yeah. But, you know, it just made me think if a church leader stood up and opened a sermon the way Habakkuk opens his, you know, his book, I think you'd get fired.
Yeah. People would be like, I don't know if I can do this. You need to have a stronger faith than me.
Yes. But do the questions mean not a strong faith? And I think maybe that's what we're going to examine today. Because I think there are some people maybe who haven't asked the questions, not because they don't have them, but maybe they didn't know they could have them or were they allowed to have them.
Yeah. And Tyler, you hit on something that's going to feel a little different about this podcast version than the last one, which is this is the same cast of characters. We're not going to rotate people in. This is it. You are stuck with us. This is what it is. So it could be great.
But every plan has a significant weakness.
There is. That's right. Is there anything else that we've changed? I don't think we've added hot wings to this or not that I know of. But if that is part of it, this would be my time to step out.
It's been discussed. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think it's part of it. So with that, we're going to switch now to kind of getting into a broad question, right? Because like you mentioned, Ross, we're coming in as Habakkuk opens and we're seeing him ask these big questions of God, these questions that we're not sure or maybe aren't normative that we hear church leaders ask. And so I think that's where we want to go first, which is just saying, can a faithful Christian who knows God, who's experienced God, who has followed God, who knows and has experienced the spirit still have doubts and be faithful? Is it okay? And I mean, I think I'd even say another way to pose it would be, can faith flounder or be flimsy and still hold us up? Right? Yeah. And so I wonder for you guys, you're church leaders. I'm a church leader.
Have you felt that? Do you resonate with Habakkuk? Has there been a time in your life where you've experienced a time in your faith where you, you've struggled with doubt in a way that made you wonder, is my faith real? I sure hope it's okay. Because I, I, I, I again think it's, there's, I feel like there's like two paths you can take in sort of church world. They're real broad, but you can be the real like cynical, tell the truth how it is and have a hard time having any hope. Or you can go the hope side, but have a really hard time saying what's right when it's hard and when it costs you. And when you, honestly, when the truth means you lose, you know, like it's hard to tell the truth when it means my life didn't go the way that I wanted or the world doesn't go the way that I wanted.
And my, since I became a Christian at 18, doubt has been something that consistently, I don't know about y'all's experience. It has been a consistent thing for me because I don't know if it's just a wiring thing. I just, I, I want to wrestle things to the ground to understand them. Um, I grew up in the Dallas area and so I was around a very like churchy context that I didn't feel, I thought was trying to be earnest, but didn't want to go all the way in telling the truth a lot of the time. Now also when you're 18, I mean, Mike, no one is more confident than a new Christian 18 year old, or maybe I'm just, I'm projecting my own issues on everybody else. But I, I think doubt for me has always been a, I mean, I've had probably, oh, I think every year when I read the Bible, especially when I was younger, Genesis one through 11, I was like, I don't know if I can believe any of this and have a really hard time with it. Cause I'm like, how do I square scientific discovery with these sorts of things?
But I've had significant crisis of faith moments throughout my journey with Jesus. And I, I just, it's hard for me to imagine not doubting, but I think doubt that depends on what kind of doubt we're talking about. You know what I'm saying? Like I was like, can a Christian have doubts? Yes. But also the context matters, you know, because if it's, if it's, if you just went through terrible suffering, you lost a loved one, that make, you're going to have some questions. Right. If you had a boring day at work and you're like, it takes to shake your face. You know what I'm saying? Right. And so I, I, I don't know. So for me, that's, I've had, we can get into it, but I just, I've had a lot of crisis moments, but I don't know if you guys, if that's just my story or if that's unique to y'all.
I don't know. No, I mean, I know for me, I was thinking about this question and I didn't grow up in a household of faith really. I mean, it was kind of like Eastern Christmas. We scoot in. If something bad happens, we're like, okay, go to church. That fixes it. That's right. Right. Put a little church on it.
See if that helped. Didn't take. Try again. Try again. Right. But I became a believer, um, towards the end of my high school, um, experience. Actually my high school English teacher, weren't you a high school English teacher? I was. My high school English teacher shared the gospel with me. Really? Yeah. Isn't that crazy? And, uh, yeah. Then she mentored, she actually was leaving the classroom. Where? Huh? To share it like during class? Well, she kind of closed out the year saying, look, I'm not supposed to do this, but I am leaving to go be a counselor in another district.
Like an altar call. Right. There's a lady teacher who said, do you want to come over and learn about the Bible? She opened it up to a bunch of like girls in my high school class. And she was a great teacher and a really fun kind of person to, so I was like, I just want to get to know her.
But in that, I came to faith. And I remember in that season, I was insatiable. I wanted to learn.
I wanted to consume everything that I could. Cause I feel like I had just, this whole world opened up to me and it wasn't hard to believe honestly in the beginning, but I went to college and actually my freshman year at UT was the first year that the Austin Stone opened. And so my faith, I feel like sometimes I'm like, I think the Lord just did this for me.
And I'm so glad other people have benefited, but I think it was for me. Um, but I just was growing so much sitting under this amazing teaching and kind of, kind of saying, okay, this, this is what it looks like to grow and mature. But also Jesus hadn't asked me to give anything up, at least not to my knowledge at that point. And I got into a relationship in college that I knew, like, I knew this isn't right. I knew this isn't good. I knew that I couldn't be in this relationship and continue following Jesus. And it felt like for the first time I had this doubt creep in of, if I choose Jesus, am I going to be unhappy forever? Am I going to, can he hold me up? Can he hold up?
Yeah. Is he good enough for me to, to walk away? Yeah. And I think that was the first time where I was really like, do I really believe this? Because if I believe it, it's going to cost me something now.
And I'm not sure it's going to offset the weight. Now I'm so glad that in that story, I look back and I'm like, I'm so glad. And honestly, the church, good teachings, like honestly, community was such a big part of helping me see the goodness of that. And looking back, I'm like, he was, he was, he was worth it. And I'm so glad that I made that decision. But it was, it felt like when I had to hold up Jesus next to something else that I wanted and he said no to, that's when I kind of had those first senses. But it was more personal. It was like the personal cost is what?
Yeah. Could I believe it? Like, it's like, I believed it when it didn't cost me anything, but at great cost, it felt like one of those moments where, you know, uh, Peter and John is like, where, where can I know you alone have the words of life? It was really one of those moments. Like, do I really believe I could be in this relationship, not have God and still be happy? And I felt like I couldn't, but it took a while to get there. So interesting. Mine is less personal. And honestly, it's all evil in the world has always been the thing that makes me question most. It's always been like suffering in, I mean, I'll still deal with it. If I see a civil war going on in Sudan or something like that. And I'm like, I have a hard time making sense of a sovereign God with those situations, even from a young, like it would be when I'm like, I can't square scientific discovery, which is one through 11. I can't make sense of, um, why this evil thing would happen in that person's life. And where is God in that? It was, so for me that it was always those sort of like philosophical things. Like I got to college, it was the philosophical questions that I would get asked and I didn't have a good answer to that would send me, I mean, spiraling because it was less about personal decision and whatever else. It was more of like, I can't square it in my mind and I don't have a cohesive worldview. And so I always found myself like kind of banking on, well, I think Jesus is true.
I don't know how to make sense of any of the, it didn't help you interpret. Yeah. Or any of the edges. Yeah. Like I get, I get him as a person and I can follow him and he's changed my life, but the edges of it, basically how does this faith relate to the world? I had no edges. Right. And so I always, I think for me it was actually a little bit different. It was more philosophical and like intellectual in that way that then drove me to pull, I never pulled away from God, but it definitely made me go, I don't know how to make sense of this and really wonder, I mean, two moments in particular where I was like, I don't know that I believe anymore. Right. Right. And that, and that, one was in college, one was when I was still on, when I was a pastor, which I can get into in a second, but I'm curious for you. I'll just leave that actually right now. I'm just kidding.
That'd be a great spot for us to get some advertising in if we were after such things.
That's exactly right.
Tune in to see how Tyler deals with this.
Go to your ad read.
Was it, was it yesterday?
I hope not.
It was on Easter Sunday.
Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I grew up in a very sheltered kind of Christian home. And so the big meta questions, both philosophically and scientifically, I never really had to encounter, um, until I was much older. Um, and so I suppose I encountered them in a different way. And yes, I have, I have ongoing struggles with doubt. I think I have them in the category of what you would call the fringes, the TD, like, um, suffering in the world, the hypocrisy of God's people, um, the institutionalization that, you know, we're part of in a weird way. And you're trying to navigate what are that is good and what are that is terrible. Um, and feeling like my doubts are more in that camp. I don't think I've had some dark nights of the soul, but I come back to the John six thing. I'm like, to whom else would I go? I don't, I don't have another worldview that holds together. And I also, I can't get to the point where I don't think Jesus is real. And so in my doubts, I'm like, but, but Jesus is real. And sometimes that's the only answer I've had, but Jesus is real. And I think he rose from the dead. Therefore the rest of this can hold and I can work through these fringe issues.
Um, I've never really felt totally undercut to the point of, um, questioning whether he was real or not. And so I've watched loved ones walk away from the faith and come with lots of questions. Um, both philosophical, scientific, um, how can the rest of this hold? How can the rest of this be true?
And all I have in combat to that is like, but Jesus of Nazareth really lived and really died.
And I think it was really for my sins. Um, and I think he really rose from the dead. And according to Paul, that's enough to hold the rest of it together. I just need to figure out how. Right.
And so that's where I apply those seasons of doubts start to go like, wait, what category is this actually in? And I found that when I'm walking with most people through seasons of doubts, it's usually in one of those fringe categories. Um, and not necessarily in the Jesus one, we just haven't equipped people well to start with the main thing and then work outwards from there. Um, but the Lord has been very kind to me in that even in deepest despair and doubt of which there's been many seasons, um, that kind of central claim has always held for me. I mean, I'm interested too, in the reality of what you said about training people, because I think sometimes faith can be shallow and doubt can raise up because maybe we grew up in households where when we had questions, they were dismissed or there was just a, because Jesus says so kind of approach to faith. And so I think a lot of this too, can be like, these questions might actually not be the thing that pushes you further from faith, but help you actually deepen it and be able to interpret some of those, not every fringe issue, but some. Yeah. If you have the right framework, right? Questions aren't a threat. They're actually a wonder, they can be a wonderful face building thing, but I don't think we've done, I don't think we've been robust enough in church communities and in the families and social groups that inhabit those church communities to build a robust framework.
Yeah. That can be like a safety net for people to ask those questions.
Well, and it's hard because with doubt, there's all, especially with your faith, there's so much fear and emotion tied up into it, which becomes really difficult to create categories.
Yes. Because emotion clouds and it like heats it up. So it's hard to separate like what, because I think the category piece is important because when you're younger in the faith, you could have a doubt simply because you don't know, interpretate another interpretation of what this text can mean. I don't even have an idea. And there's a difference between being new to the faith or younger in something. You don't know something because we're limited creatures and takes time to come to conclusions. And so that's part of that process where I go, I don't know what this means. So I kind of instinctively kind of doubt it, but not in a significant shaking kind of way.
And then there's kinds of doubt where it's more central claims and it's more like, no, you've been trained, you know what it is, and you still have doubts. What does that mean?
And I do think in both my own experience personally and in pastoring people, you always get to that bottom where eventually like you can get all the arguments and all the apologetics and all the historical resources. And there is that bottom of, you're going to have to trust God. And I have both in my own soul and in helping people. That is actually always the scariest moment for me personally.
I can have people in mind that I've talked to in my own times in prayer, where you work through all the layers, the childhood, the churches, the people, the context, my emotions, my day, all that.
But you get to that bottom, you're like, there's just a level of, do you think he's good and trustworthy? And I think that's a scary bottom because I always say like, that's like taste bud stuff. I can't make this taste good. Because it just tastes sour to you. I'm like, I don't know how to, I can't fix that. And I think when I've gotten those seasons, the one that crisis of faith I have, one was in college because a guy I loved who wasn't a Christian asked me a question. Basically, he was like, if Jesus is so real, why make it so hard to see him? Why not just show up right here in front of me? And that way, if I say no, it's clearly on me. And he's borrowing all sorts of presuppositions in that. But at 21, I think because I couldn't have a right answer, I really was like, I don't think I can trust a God who would make it so hard. And then in 2016, when I was a pastor, or I was a pastor at Stone and still am, obviously, I remember it was actually when ISIS was moving in the Middle East and doing all these awful things, something, there's a New York Times article that I read about what they were doing. And I remember being like, I cannot in my soul understand why this, now again, but now the truth is, we'll get into it, but there's always evil in the world. I'm just aware of it at this point in time, right? But I get to those bottom, and that's where I do think the claims of Jesus are unique, and that he is able to get to the bottom of my heart and give me that solve to my soul to go, you don't understand. And I'm not giving you necessarily an answer.
Right.
But the fact that the central human story and God's redemptive plan is a suffering one, is resurrected, I have found nothing better to get me out of doubts than, I don't know how it all makes sense. But there's a suffering and risen one who knows both of those things. And that has always calmed me down. But I think that that has always been the bottom in the categories of where am I at. But that's a scary, it's just a scary place to be when you're like, it just doesn't taste good to me right now. And what do you do? And what do you do when that happens?
Right. Well, in so much of faith, it does feel like what you're talking about is the ceiling raising for what you can trust God through. Yeah. Because it feels like you might not be a person who's prone to doubt, you might be prone to optimism, but it's a guarantee that at some point in your life, some suffering will come, that you will be asked to trust God in a new, greater, more costly, sacrificial way, in a way that's scary, right? Like that's going to happen for all of us. And so I do get a sense that the ceiling of can, is God trustworthy here? Is he here? Is he here?
That's right. We're all like, it's, we're always coming back to that.
And that's the tension I feel sometimes with this discussion is that we also need to say that that growth in faith is a good thing. Yes, right.
And so, you know, just being in the gospel so much recently, and just seeing how Jesus commends faith. Yeah.
He actually instructs his disciples. He's like, there's a huge power. If you believe this and do not doubt, you could say to this mountain be thrown into the sea, right? And so he says, there is actually a good thing in growing in faith to a point where you don't doubt his power and his character and his ability and his presence. And he invites starters into touch and to see. And so that's the tension that I think we need to walk pastorily with others and even with ourselves of like, yes, it's okay to doubt.
It's not okay to just flounder there.
Right.
And stay there.
Yeah. That's not a good mode for Christian growth.
Right.
You actually have to take some proactive steps, just like you said to Thomas, come touch. No, you've got to come touch. Come touch. You said you wanted to come touch. You have to now in that moment, have the faith and the courage to reach out and touch. Because I want you to grow in your faith. I don't want you to stay there.
I think that's so good, Ross.
Yeah. And so like, the answer has been inefficient to just say, you just got to have faith, right?
It didn't work for George Michael, didn't work for anyone, right?
And so that can't...
Do we have a producer?
I'll cover her off that particular song, which was hilarious. Yeah.
Please do.
Yeah. Definitely didn't work for them. But that isn't enough, right? But I think there's become almost a zeitgeist moment where it's like, doubt in and of itself has become virtuous.
Oh, right.
Right.
To the extent where you're allowed to just dwell in it to the point where you become cynical. And that's seen as the more virtuous path. But Jesus calls us away from that too.
Right.
And I just think we've got to navigate that tension posturally.
What's interesting is, I think doubt is virtuous when it comes to faith, but everyone wants to be certain everywhere else.
Oh, and you hold that doubt with a lot of certainty.
That's exactly right.
Yeah. But I think that's part of it for people is, like you were saying, you can proactively pursue faith and doubt. But the recognition is if I'm not proactively pursuing faith in doubt, I'm proactively pursuing something else. Right.
And it's, will I be as critical of that thing as I am Christian faith? Right.
Because I mean, that is Tim Keller to a T, which he's helped. He's probably helped me the most in his writings of doubting your doubts. Right.
So the same like incisive questions you're asking of the Christian faith. Yeah.
Do the same thing with what you're the alternative is, which is what got me out of, which is what got me out of crisis both times was looking at, well, my alternative, my alternative is what?
Yeah.
So the awful thing that was in 2016 with ISIS things I was reading, I was like, so I'm, I don't understand why God would allow it. I don't know what's happening.
So in that scenario, I just don't know what, what God's up to, but I know he hates it.
I know it's evil. I know these, these women matter. These people matter. I know that, but I don't know why the, all the alternative is there is no God. There is no such thing as good and evil. There's just nothing there. And so I'm like, is it, is it more likely that these, these people matter and I don't know why this is happening or these people don't matter. And it doesn't really matter what happens to them. It's just strong devouring the weak.
Which is why that John six moment is so strong. To whom else would I go? I've said that to a number of number of people that challenge. That's right.
To whom else would you go? That's exactly right.
Like seriously, go test your other options and see if they're better than Jesus.
Right.
That's exactly right. So I just, that, that has been helpful and I think good for everybody to go.
But I think most time, if we're honest, I don't want to do that work.
Yeah.
I'm, and that's why I do think under doubt.
Or I'm too hurt or too weak to do it.
That's right. There's heartbreak underneath there typically, you know, but.
Well, and I think we have to also examine the reality that sometimes doubts can turn into demands, right? So there's the sense of like, I'm doubting God because he's not doing what I want him to do.
That'll preach, Phil.
Yeah.
Hey, there you go.
Yeah.
But I do, I do, you know, I think that is a good thing for us to consider is sometimes we just think if I were in charge, I would do this differently.
And wouldn't it be better if God, wouldn't it be made more sense that he's actually not in charge?
And so how do we, how do we keep the God centeredness of the reality that he is in fact, sovereign, even if our doubts may persist, it doesn't change the reality that he is in fact good and sovereign over all things.
And so how do, how do we keep our doubts from turning into demands of God?
I think that's where this study through Habakkuk is going to be so helpful for us.
In that he does stand borderline demand of God and God does answer, but he just uses totally different categories from what he's expecting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And not to bury the lead, but it's not a very long book, right?
If you get to the end, eventually Habakkuk goes like, okay, I trust you.
But he doesn't actually get satisfactory answers to his demands, but he does get answers.
He does get answers.
And his answers are like, I'm working on stuff you've got no idea.
Right.
I'm in other categories you haven't even considered.
Right.
And he, his act of faith is at the end to go like, okay, even though I don't fully see it or understand it, the righteous will live by his faith.
Right.
And so I'm going to step into faith.
And so like, you are who you said you are.
I don't get it, but you are who you said you are.
And that's, I think it's going to be a helpful narrative, a story arc for us.
Especially if we're in the season where we tempted to get into a demanding posture.
Well, and I think the two exactly to that place to, to name, to keep from the demand, you're going to have to name why the doubts scare you and what the heartbreak is underneath those things.
And I, I think we don't, we can hide behind demands because I don't want to be the humble, vulnerable person that I actually am.
I don't want to be vulnerable and have to tell God I'm demanding this because I'm sad that you didn't come through in the way that I thought you would.
I'm afraid.
I'm afraid.
Yeah.
But, but that makes, because I think our default is none of us like intimacy or real relationship.
Like we don't want a dynamic relationship with God where it's vulnerable and candid and warm.
I want, if I say I want that, but then that makes, that means I have to be vulnerable and humble and I don't want to do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'd rather, I rather settle for policy where it's like, no, there's clear terms.
Yeah.
You do your thing.
I do my part and we can work this thing out.
Right.
And God is consistently going to press and go, because back to the categories you're talking about, when God shows up to Job or whoever else, he doesn't feel any obligation to meet you with the questions that you had.
And at some level, if there's a goodness and a loving relationship there, you can get to a place of truth is helpful, but love is what fills me up.
Right.
Truth like is a foundation and it guides, but I need to know like, am I loved by this being?
Mm-hmm.
Does he, is he for me in any way?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's where, I mean, Habakkuk can tie himself to the covenant promises to Israel and go, he's going to do good to us ultimately, even though right now I don't see it.
Yeah.
And I think that's where for the Christian is I can tie back up to Jesus is doing this macro level world building thing that I'm one little person in.
Mm-hmm.
And I can trust that even right now, it doesn't seem like he sees me in the chaos of all that it is.
Mm-hmm.
That's what I'm more concerned about.
Yep.
I want to believe it's because I'm so thoughtful and intellectual and I have all these questions, but I'm like, am I just loved and am I okay?
Yeah.
Okay.
And do I have purpose in this life?
You know, and is death the end for me?
All those deeper sort of questions.
So I think there is that level of, I don't want to go to the level of humble vulnerability that I think getting in the kingdom of God, but doubts can kind of cover that up.
So I'm like, be brave enough to go to God with your doubts, but be brave enough to say the hard things underneath it.
Yeah.
That's good.
The sad things underneath it, the fears underneath it.
And I think you'll start understanding why certain doubts stick and others don't.
Yeah.
There tends to be heartbreak underneath them.
That's right.
That's what makes them stick.
Right.
So just see it, but you got to name it.
That's right.
But it can make us feel weak and vulnerable.
Oh yeah.
Don't want that.
Don't want it.
Okay.
This is so good.
I'm so excited about kind of diving deeper into Habakkuk.
So we're going to transition to more of those conversations and questions that Habakkuk asks later.
But I do want to introduce what I think will be a recurring segment for each episode, and it's called In Good Faith.
Okay.
I love that.
So we're talking about faith.
Sponsored by it.
Yes.
Project by Mr. Coffee.
Is that even still there?
I don't know.
Probably not.
But in this recurring segment of In Good Faith, we're looking at the opposite of doubt.
We're looking at faith and how we can cultivate it.
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen.
And we know faith can take different forms at different times.
Sometimes it can be faith of a mustard seed.
Sometimes that mustard seed, it can be watered and nurtured, and it can grow into something stable and strong like an oak tree.
When Jesus would say, all you need is a mustard seed.
That's it.
Which is amazing.
That's it.
He's like, you don't even need that much.
Start there.
Exactly.
But when I think about faith too, I think about Peter and I think about when he saw Jesus walking on the water.
And there was something about Peter who wanted to get out of the boat because he loved Jesus.
He wanted to be with Jesus.
Right.
But he also knew if Jesus says so, this water will hold me, which is a crazy- It's insane.
Faith proclamation that that would even enter his brain that Jesus could do it.
Yeah.
But he steps out and he does.
Right.
And the water does hold him.
And as long as Peter's eyes are fixed on Christ, he can stand.
Yeah.
And this is kind of the point, right?
But when he got distracted, when his eyes came off Christ, when he saw the bigness of the waves, when he saw the strength of the wind, when he saw the storm itself, he started to sink.
Yeah.
Right.
And so it does feel like there is some sense of how can we keep our eyes on Christ?
What are the small things, the small investments, the holy habits, to kind of go back to our recent sermons, what are those things that we can do to water the seeds of faith in our own lives so that they can mature and grow up and bear fruit?
So in this segment, that's where we're going to kind of each take an episode and focus on what does it look like in your life?
And Ross, we're going to start with you.
Great.
Just what does it look like in your life to nurture the faith God has granted you?
Yeah.
I would start just by kind of framing a little bit by saying, you know, even in the scriptures where we have the description of what faith is, it's this certainty of this conviction of something that's hoped for and that cannot be seen, right?
So what that suggests is, there's a gap.
There's a gap between what you can see and what cannot be seen.
There's a gap between what you hope for and what really is.
In good faith, you want to fill that gap with something that brings you closer to faith and doesn't drag you further into doubt.
I think we don't know what to do with that gap.
We wonder, can we have it?
Well, the scripture says it's there, but by default, it's there.
Even in good faith, there's this gap between what you see and what you'll ultimately see, what you have and what you hope for.
What do you do with that gap?
Right.
And some of the disciplines are some of the ways that you can exercise the mustard seed of faith in a tiny, small way and say, I want to fill that gap with something that moves me towards faith and doesn't drag me towards doubt.
In this space, there's a couple that have been very helpful for me.
The one that's just being in the scriptures.
I know it sounds very lame, typical pastor to say, like, read your Bible.
But I go to the scriptures.
And in particular, this might sound a bit too 101 for some folks.
I go back to the gospels.
Yes.
Because if Paul argues that the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, what holds it all together, I want to go to what holds it all together.
That's right.
I don't want to spend my time figuring out who the Nephilim were.
That's right.
Because that's something that's going to fray at the edges for me.
That's where we go, right?
That is where I go.
And I want to go and pick apart and go, like, why are these accounts different from that account?
Right?
And so I just read tons in the gospels and go, like, oh, but Jesus is luminous.
I can't look away from him.
And what he says holds.
And it's true.
And I believe it's true.
Of the gospels, which one has resonated most deeply with you?
It depends.
I mean, Mark is so action-packed.
And so if you're tired, Mark, because it's short.
And it's just like, and immediately, and immediately, and immediately.
And it's all the stuff that he did.
The gospel of John, though, really is what soothes my soul in terms of how it paints this cohesive worldview.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Of Jesus as the spoken word, you know, and as the embodied word.
And yeah, so the gospel of John is where I'll go back to.
Yeah.
And we'll spend a lot of time in.
But where I've grown in faith is I'll also just continue my regular Bible study.
Because that's how I'm grabbing hold of a mustard seed and saying, like, the Lord wants me to read Lamentations.
So, and that's what's on my Bible reading plan today.
And that's how I exercise this muscle of faith.
And yes, it might feel like nothing goes in, but that's how I step into that gap a little bit.
The other one that I would say is actually Christian fellowship.
Amen.
Yeah.
Because I think in my experience in my own heart and in people who I love, who I've walked with, is usually when doubt starts to become crippling, I see a withdrawal.
Yeah.
Because we don't know if it's going to be a safe space to have that level of gap.
And so we withdraw from it and it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy every single time.
Right.
Now, the problem is I can't guarantee that your particular fellowship will be a safe space.
Right, right.
But that's the faith that you've got to exercise to go, I'm going to try.
Right.
I'm going to try to find some people that this is a safe space with.
And I've had the experience of it not being safe.
I've shared in a small group of, you know, a season of doubt and have experienced nothing but condemnation for that.
Right.
But by faith, you try again.
You try another group.
Right.
You try some different folk.
Yeah.
And you try in grace and in faith to go like, no, but me figuring this out on my own is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm going to grow embittered and cold and walk away further than I would walk together with some people who go like, man, I don't even have an answer for you, but I'll walk with you.
Right.
Do you have anything in a practical way that someone has done for you to be a good Christian?
So I think it's always easy to describe the negative version of it.
Do you have anything like any practical ways that someone has helped you particularly in the Christian fellowship space where you're like, they helped me sustain or not even answer my questions or just keep me?
Like, what were those things?
You know, I love the story of David and Jonathan and I love the line in 1 Samuel 23, I think it is, where it says that Jonathan went and strengthened David's hand in God.
Yeah.
And I've had some people who have done that for me.
They haven't tried to get me to be strong.
They've said, I'm strong right now in my faith and I'll strengthen your hand.
Yeah.
So they've shared scriptures.
They've just been stable.
Yeah.
And consistent.
They haven't wallowed with me and gone like, you're right, tear it all down.
Yeah.
Learn it.
Instead of going to church, let's go get brunch and, you know, martinis or whatever.
They've gone like, no, I'm going.
Do you want to come?
Yeah.
I'll be strong for you.
That's right.
In the midst of this season.
And that's been the most meaningful forms of encouraging fellowship.
And that's been a mode of friendship I've tried to engage with others.
Yeah.
And you look around and go like, someone else might be weaker.
I can strengthen your hand in God by not joining you in the pit.
Yeah, that's right.
But by reaching down and seeing maybe you can grab hold.
So in some ways, like being a good friend to someone who's doubting, there's both direct and indirect ways to do that.
There's a direct way of like scriptures and church and these sorts of like practices.
But I think there's something about indirect of let me just have a be a life.
Yeah.
An example in front of you of like, dude, just because you're shaking doesn't mean I am.
Yeah.
That's right.
And there's something setting and go, I don't, I can feel, I love Romans 14 and 15 of just like, I think Christian friendship is a game of like a tag team.
Mm-hmm.
Where it's like, listen, my season of weakness is coming.
Yeah.
So when I'm weak, please be strong for me.
But in this time, I'm going to be like, I can hear all your questions to go, yeah, Jesus is still who he says he is.
You're like, I don't know.
You're like, that's okay.
Yeah.
But that.
And I'll say too, with those legacy friendships too, I think one of the most comforting things is when you can be honest about where you really are.
Yeah.
Because in your mind for that to be true, sometimes you're like, and this is the truest thing.
It's you forget all of the legacy of faith and all of the things that God has done.
And so good friends, when you feel that sense of despair, can hear you and be like, that's true right now.
But they don't have to let that color your entire existence and what's always been true.
Sometimes they, Piper calls it those, the words for the wind that sometimes you can just say something and it can be true in the moment.
Yeah.
It doesn't have to reshape or rewrite your entire story.
And you're like, oh, because I feel it really intensely right now.
Right now.
And your friend can be like, yeah, and that's true and right and good.
But it doesn't mean that it's the truest thing about you, even if it's true right now.
When you're being a good friend, there's good, it's also good to remember like just that head, heart, hands category of like, what are the things that they're, true things they need to hear?
What's emotional things going on in their life?
What are practical things to consider?
Because sometimes I've needed my wife, Lauren, to be like, you also had a really long week and you're just tired.
Yeah.
You know, like just someone to go.
Have a Snickers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just like, you ever heard of a nap?
But I'm like, only weak people take naps.
That's right.
But there's also that sense of someone going, hey, have you thought about, you're doubting God, but have you thought about the state of your like sense of singleness or marriage?
Have you thought about like, but you're really miserable at work right now.
Have you factored that in?
I do worry a little bit about this though, is that we're getting a little bit pulled into the Rubik's Cube game of life right now.
We're like, no, no, if you can just get your diet right, your schedule right, everything right.
You'll be happy.
Then you'll be, well, everything will be smooth sailing and any bump is a sign that something's off.
Right.
You know, that's why, I mean, back to the fellowship piece, like the psalmist being people who are constantly writing poems, like where is God?
But there's something honest about that that I, so anyway, I think there's just a lot of layers to go to be that kind of friend to somebody.
You're going to make mistakes too.
You're going to overstep.
You're going to be, you know, misread the moment kind of thing.
And I think what you said is right.
You have to keep trying and not hold people who are trying to love you to a standard that no one could possibly meet.
I do think we self-sabotage.
I'm like, no, no, I need you to be, to read the moment perfectly.
I didn't want a Bible verse then.
Well, I know, dude, but like, I'm trying to help.
Yeah.
That's all I'm trying to do.
So I think it's, it's having grace both ways.
That's good.
But I, again, I just think the practical piece of like someone who knows you your whole life does help and go, hey, you, you tend to get sad around this time of year because that's when that person who you love died this time of year.
And this, I've noticed this pattern in your life.
You're like, oh, really?
Every December, me sad.
You know, like, you learn that in friendship that it's hard.
You can't get in a book.
I need someone to tell me that.
That's really good.
I love that.
Well, thanks for sharing what you, what you do to us and how that helps.
For now, that's going to wrap our first episode of Questioning God.
If you're interested, you can follow along with our church as we go through the story of Habakkuk at any one of our six locations that meet across Austin.
Make sure to like and subscribe this podcast so that you can catch our next episode, which is going to look at how the problem of pain and suffering specifically can cause us to question the character of God.
We'll see you then.
Bye.