A mailbag episode! You’ve got questions about doubt, suffering, evil, and how Christians can persist in faith and worship in a broken, painful world.
A mailbag episode! You’ve got questions about doubt, suffering, evil, and how Christians can persist in faith and worship in a broken, painful world.
Do you have a question you'd like us to answer? Email us at podcast@austinstone.org.
All right, friends, well, welcome to another episode of Questioning God, a prerecorded podcast of The Austin Stone that is following our study of Habakkuk.
This season, we've been looking at the title character Habakkuk as he asks hard, sometimes even brazen questions to God and considering how those honest prayers and deep questions might actually build our faith and not tear it down.
I'm joined today, well, actually, my name is Val Hamilton, and I'm joined today by my dear friends and first-round draft picks, Tyler David and Ross Lester.
Welcome back, you guys.
Are you ready to go again?
Being a first-round draft pick is a really high honor.
Honestly, I thought you would appreciate it.
Do they have draft picks?
They don't.
You don't draft anything.
There are no drafts.
You follow that I don't follow.
No, it's more of a sign-up.
No, we don't.
I'm still learning what this thing is and, yeah, what it looks like to fall from a first round to a fifth round, which I was like, I feel that.
Oh, my gosh.
I understand that.
It's a Ross Lester story.
Yeah.
Listen, you guys are first-round draft picks in my heart.
And maybe not for the NFL.
Maybe more for a league that emphasizes theological precision, cultural application.
I think you guys would really excel.
I think we're undrafted in that draft.
No, but even in the NFL, I'm like, I could see Ross being like a tasteful Aaron Rodgers-esque quarterback.
And you like...
Wait, is he a good guy?
He's a good guy.
Oh, he is?
Yeah.
I think he's been around.
He's wise.
He's seasoned.
That feels like you.
I don't know much about football, but...
You could do it.
There seems to be varied opinions on Aaron Rodgers.
I know.
I love these shows, Aaron Rodgers.
I was just thinking he's been around.
And then for you...
Oh, so like an old guy.
Yeah.
But like good still.
Honestly, like near the end.
Yeah.
Great hair, pretty old.
But still can get it.
Right.
I think he can get it.
And then I was thinking Travis...
Or no, you're more like a Travis Kelsey, Tyler.
There you go.
Like the tight end.
I think that too.
Trusted true.
Yeah, dude.
In zone dancing.
That's so your jam.
T-Swift.
Laura is so like T-Swift.
That's who I am.
Tell her.
That's who I've always been.
That's right.
That's right.
Well, let's assume Roger Goodell is not going to call us in anytime soon.
We're going to stick with this podcast.
We're here right now.
So for you guys who are tuning in, if you followed our podcast last time, we followed Habakkuk as he was asking his second complaint against God that focused on evil and injustice in the world.
And today we're going to shift from looking back to the questions he asked a thousand years ago and kind of do modern day questions.
Questions for men and women that are in our church, the Austin Stone, and ways that they have wrestled and are still wrestling with God.
So we're bringing kind of those doubts that we've seen historically up to the modern age.
And so if you guys are good with it, we'll just kind of treat this as a mailbag episode where we'll just tackle as many as we can before we wrap up.
That sound good?
Love it.
Sounds great.
All right.
All right.
Well, our first question that we're going to hit, and I think this is a really, really good one to start with, because I think at the core of everyone's fear about doubt is what does it mean for my salvation?
Right?
There's this sense of, is this even okay?
And what does it mean?
And so the question is, when should doubt, if ever, cause me to truly question my salvation?
Or maybe another way to say it, can I doubt so much that I might not really even be a believer?
What would you guys say?
It's a great question.
I think it's important thinking about faith, whether it's doubt or sin or evil, whatever.
I think we tend to operate in a, sometimes a simple understanding where it's a one-to-one and things kind of cancel each other out.
Right.
So if I have doubt, that cancels out faith.
Right.
Or if I have sin, that cancels out God's righteousness.
And I think when it comes to those kinds of questions, it comes to real doubt, it's important to know one doesn't cancel out the other.
And there is this sort of Galatians 5, flesh and spirit coexistence that's always going to be part of the Christian life.
Right.
And I think that's part of the tension is, I don't know what to do when there's contradictory things in me.
So my sort of counsel with that person would be primarily of when you think about doubt affecting salvation, I would say doubt doesn't affect salvation.
I would say pride is a different sort of way to view it.
Yeah.
Because when you look, Tim Keller has this great line where he says, it's not the sinful that can't get in the kingdom of heaven.
It's the proud.
Because he talks about it's the humble that are able to enter in.
And in my mind, doubting can be a humble posture towards the world if I don't know how to make sense of something.
Doubt can be brought to God in a humble posture of, I don't know what to do with this.
There is a level of pride where I'm like, but you're not worth trusting.
I don't think that means you're not saved, but I think it's just making sense of they don't cancel each other out, but what is the nature of my doubt?
And what's the posture, right?
Like, is there a sense in which we are presuming with our doubts we know better?
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that is what you're saying.
I've kind of thought of faith or doubts in faith is more of like a bridge to, you know, doubts are sometimes the bridge from the faith you have to the faith God is building, the faith ultimately that will be perfected.
Yeah.
Because I think, again, those questions, like you said, they're just trying to make sense of a confusing world.
And sometimes the faith we have is only because of the circumstances we've had.
Right.
The sense of God's asked us to trust up to this point if the stakes are this high and then we get a call or something changes and now we have to trust God in new ways.
And it's like that doubt can enter of, can he be trusted even if it means X, Y, and Z, right?
And I think there's a way for doubts to become the justifications for falling into deeper levels of sin.
And I think that's something to be considerate of because even in the very jarring Matthew 7 where Jesus tells a group of people, you know, they did all these powerful works for him.
He says, I never knew you.
And I think that's for a lot of Christians.
It makes them think, is there a way for me to be sure of God and him not be sure of me?
But in that text, it is, what he says is, you know, you're workers of lawlessness.
And so I think there is something about my doubts, are my doubts becoming justifications for further levels of disobedience and sin?
Because I think that's where doubts can get very heady.
It's very like philosophical, theological, even personal questions.
But it is a, but what is your like actual life look like?
Like you can be doubting and still showing up to Sunday service.
You can be doubting and still trying to pray.
You can be doubting.
So that's where for me, when it comes to assessing someone's actual faith, it's, are you still repenting and believing the gospel as the consistent pattern of your life?
Not so much, are you so strong in faith, but are you willing to say, even my doubts when I'm sinning, am I still willing to bring that to God and say, but I'm still wrong.
I still need forgiveness.
I still need grace.
Because I think when Jesus shows up and says the kingdom of God is here, his main criteria for how to enter the kingdom of God is to repent and believe the gospel.
It's not how much Bible you read.
It's not how strong you believe.
It's, are you willing just to own that you need help?
You can't save yourself.
And only I can do that.
Yeah.
I think that is the basis of a Romans 10.
Like if you confess through your mouth and believe with your heart that Jesus died for your sins, that is a level of what it means to believe.
Now I think now, but I have seen in people where doubts, doubts get stronger when I have secret sort of unconfessed sins on in my life.
Right.
There is a relationship between the kind of ecosystem of my life and how I'm living with how, not all the time, but when some doubts get really strong, just in my pastoral experience, when I ask more personal questions of what's going on in the dark, there's a lot of things happening there too.
So I think you have to, if we're going to have, as a question, honestly, it's like, I don't think having a level of sin makes you not saved, but I do think there's a second Peter one idea of there are things you do to make your calling and election more sure as you grow into maturity and godliness.
But again, it is the baseline of, are you willing to confess with your mouth and believe that Jesus is Lord and they die for your sins?
That's it.
That's it.
That's the mustard seed, right?
And I think as long as that's there, now people will go through times where even that you're questioning.
How do I know that for sure?
I do think this is where perseverance of the saints is important.
It's like, let's look at your whole life and have other people, have pastors in your life, help you navigate that and not feel like you have to answer all those questions on your own.
So again, I think they can coexist.
And I think both, but to really answer that question, you have to be open to, let's get into the specifics of your doubt and the specifics of your faith and what they look like and what they mean and not just, I just think it's easy to hide behind jargon and not want to get into the details of what do you mean by that?
And honestly, having good friends and being a good friend is going, I'm going to actually press you when you say I'm struggling.
What does that mean?
Because struggling can mean struggling or it can mean I have just given in to every possible thing, you know?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's such good categories, TD.
I think there is a distinction between soft hearted doubt.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And hard hearted unbelief.
Yeah.
And I think it takes good friendship, good understanding, good postural ministry.
Yeah.
Good self-awareness.
Yeah.
And humility to be able to tell the difference between the two.
That's good.
And so I would be slow to make any of these categories salvific.
Yeah.
Just because of what I believe salvation is.
Right.
And because of what I believe about how God saves people and keeps them.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm slow to put these in salvific categories, especially with Romans 10 in mind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But my self-reflection question would be like, is this an area of soft hearted doubt or is this an area of hard hearted unbelief?
Yes.
Where I'm digging my heels in and actually rebelling.
And immovable.
And I think those are different things.
And, you know, even in unbelief, the Bible says, you know, Lord, we believe.
Help our unbelief.
That's right.
But that's a soft hearted posture.
That's saying, help me.
I want to move from this.
And not, oh, I'm so sure in my unbelief that I'm going to set up these camps and wires and trenches to defend that.
Yeah.
Right.
And so, yeah, I would say as long as you're soft hearted towards the Lord and desiring to grow in belief, I think you're in a good spot.
Well, and I love what you said, Ross, because I think some of the fear for people is to say, my grip on God feels really weak.
Yeah.
It feels like at any moment I could let him go.
And that is where the salvation comes.
But I do think there's this other side of our salvation that is God holding us.
Yeah.
Right.
And so I don't know if you, if you, either one of you want to speak to some of that assurance that the faith that we have isn't the first measure, at least the strength of the faith that we have of getting in to heaven, that it's actually God's choice of us and holding of us and persevering of us that can help that happen.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not sure we want to get into a full, self-perfect discussion.
I think.
This is perfect.
We're going to teach Philippians later this year.
And so I'm just spending a lot of time in it.
And Philippians 1, you know, he began a good work in you.
We'll bring it to completion of Christ.
It's just been such a soothing balm to my soul.
Right.
He's talking to a church there and there's some sanctification elements there and glorification elements.
But he is saying, hey, God deposited something in you through the spirit.
You responded by faith.
He won't throw you away.
Right.
He won't let go.
You might let go.
He won't let go.
Right.
And that's been so helpful to me.
And so comforting.
In moments of weakness, in moments of doubt.
Right.
To go, yeah, my grip has slipped, but his hand remains firm.
It remains firm.
And that's just, and again, I think these are supposed to be pastorally soothing balms, right?
It's something to rest your head on.
It's not supposed to be some kind of magic stick to beat people with.
But as a soothing balm or as a comforting pillow, it's very reassuring to know that in seasons where, yes, I have been languishing in doubt, God has held firm and he's kept me.
And I think in a pragmatic way, the way that will work is the Holy Spirit will produce seeds of faith consistently.
So the way he's going to keep you is he's going to keep producing.
Although, I mean, I've counseled people of the fact that you're even asking the question is a good place to be, that you're even wondering.
Yeah.
Because if you, because that's kind of the Romans one hardness of heart thing is I don't even think about it.
I'm not, I don't care if my doubt or my salvation or anything about it, I'm just living my life with no thought of it.
And so my, it's like dead people can't feel things, dead people don't respond.
And so even the fact that the fight is actually an evidence of faith for me.
So I think it's even good to say that's the whole, and I think to have people to back up and go, that is the Holy Spirit of God producing those questions in you.
Because that's how God keeps us is the Holy Spirit is going to keep applying and bringing up faith because there is some relationship between the gospel just heard doesn't necessarily mean salvation.
The gospel believed is what produces salvation.
So the spirit of God is going to keep bringing that back up.
And I think that's where, again, you need people in your life to go to remind you, hey, don't let two months of doubt throw away the last 10 years of God's word.
And I think that's where you need to have some perspective is to go, especially early on in your faith is you need people to show you what you're seeing as normal in your life.
That actually is the Holy Spirit of God working in you.
Let me point that out to you.
Let me show you how this is actually evidence of it.
Right.
Because you also, to y'all's point is the other swing is it doesn't matter what I do or what I believe because God's got his hand on me.
So who cares?
Right.
There's also that other ditch you can fall into.
And so it is helping us believe the promises, grab hold of the promises, and even seeing that my barely holding on or even my seasons of rebellion, the fact that I even care is evidence that God's with me.
That's right.
And it helps me see.
That's so good.
It makes me think of the verse in Hebrews that says, today, if you hear his voice, don't harden your heart.
Because there is some reality of just even hearing a voice to doubt is God's active presence in your life.
So, okay.
We're going to go to our second question.
You guys, I feel like we did a great job on that one.
Thank you, Phil.
Guys, not great.
Let's get better on this next one.
That one is seven.
We'll see what we go, what we get next.
So I think this next one that we got from someone at our church, which I think is good, is what do we do when the church has been some of the source of our suffering, right?
Whether it's the leaders, whether it's the interactions with the church.
Sometimes I think we can say, oh, I know what it's going to be like to be a part of God's church.
I see who God is in the scriptures.
And then we experience his people or his family in a way that makes us doubt, well, is all of this even real, right?
If I'm getting hurt this badly in the church.
So how would you guys speak to the suffering that comes from the church or its leaders?
One, I think, I mean, this has been something as having been a leader in our church for some time that to varying degrees and various seasons, I've seen very up close and personal.
And everyone, and that's the thing, I think it's important to say before I get into it, that to have real relationships with love anywhere means there's going to be hurt and disappointment and letdown.
So I think when we come to the church, we can put expectations on it that literally no person other than Jesus could ever fulfill, right?
That's the nature of being in a relationship is there is a potential of being hurt.
But I think the first thing you have to do, especially in the church, especially if it's a leader in the church, is you have to tell the truth about it.
I think it's really easy to experience pain or hurt from somebody and to explain it away, to not know how to deal with it.
So I think you have to tell the truth about it both to God, both to other people, both to leaders in the church, and depending on what we're talking about, potentially to the authorities, right?
Right.
There is a telling the truth about it that I think you can't move past anything until you name what the thing is.
Yes.
And you have to name it and call it for what it is.
So that would be the first thing is if this is, because again, there's like normal sort of relational disappointments and I didn't get texted back or a group that I was a part of fell through or this service let me down.
Those are normal kind of things in a life of a church.
Then there's the more insidious things that are leaders using power in abusive ways and those kinds of things.
So I think it's important you have to layer that some we're talking about.
But I do think it's worth saying church hurt is uniquely disorienting and uniquely destructive, similar to how hurt in your family of origin is uniquely disorienting, uniquely destructive.
Because if you get hurt in the world generally by people, it is painful.
But I wasn't looking to you to be something.
You expect that.
When it's family or church, this is supposed to be a safe place.
I'm supposed to be protected here, provided for here.
cared for here, loved here.
And that is disorienting and destructive when with a church leadership, it's not only are you supposed to be safe and not only supposed to be protective and care for me.
I also thought maybe this is what God wanted.
Yeah.
So then you bring a whole other dimension of spiritual sort of nature of it.
And that's what happens in those dynamics is typically the person who's doing the hurting of somebody.
Depending on the person, their own passions are driving them.
The false teacher, I always find it fascinating, the false teachers in the New Testament, the way that Paul and Peter described them is they're driven by passions.
It's not just that they have wrong teaching, though they do.
It's not that they read the wrong books or went to the wrong schools.
It's always they have these passions and desires that are unruly.
Right.
And so they don't know.
They have cravings that they are using to gobble up people with.
So they have to self-justify it.
So they think they're doing the good thing.
They think in their brokenness that this is somehow good and this is somehow normal.
And that's what makes a person who's being hurt is so disorienting.
Because I'm like, wait, like you grew up in a family, you normalize what's happening.
And then you look back and you go, oh, that was really broken and destructive.
I didn't know that.
That's what I thought family meant.
Same with church.
Right.
So I think it's disorienting and destructive.
All that's going to mean is it's going to take time to unpack and parse out all that happened, especially if God uses them for good in your life.
Right.
Which I think is the most disorienting thing about the whole situation when it comes to church hurt.
It's the same person who God can use to heal you, the same person God, the sin can use to harm you.
Right.
And that is really – Right.
I mean having – It doesn't erase the other.
Right.
Yeah.
And that is the hardest part about growing up as a maturity in Christ is, again, back to the idea of flesh and spirit exist together.
Good and bad mingle in the same person.
And God uses broken – really broken people to accomplish good things.
And he also – and that doesn't justify the broken things that they do.
That to me has always been the sort of – I mean this last couple of years of like you just see that again and again of like there was real good God did.
And that was used as cover up for real evil that other people did.
And I think if you've gone through that, you're going to have to tell the truth about it, understand how uniquely destructive and disorienting it is, and be patient with how much time it takes to get back.
And that would be my last thing is be able to parse out and delineate and also take time.
Jesus is not his church.
Like these are two different things.
But Jesus has wed himself to the church.
Right.
And so don't – and be able to differentiate the church globally versus a local church.
Because even in the New Testament, there are local expressions of the church where Jesus in Revelation is going to rebuke in significant ways and threaten to take his lampstand away.
So that means there are expressions of so-called Christians assembled in a local church that are broken and shouldn't be a part of.
Right.
But he still has wed himself to the church.
And so part of that sort of Jesus is not his church, but he's wed himself to the church.
I have to navigate those things so that I don't, in the back end of this, have this idea that I could have Jesus without his people.
You're going to have to figure out how to get back into that place that Jesus wed himself to be.
Right.
And know how to – honestly, know how to assess what's healthy leadership, what's healthy community in a realistic way.
Right.
So that's a lot.
But I just – I've been thinking about this a ton because of the last couple of years of how do I help people navigate and tell the truth about all the things without throwing out everything that God has already ordained to be the places where he shows up to meet people.
Yeah.
You know.
That's good.
Well, and I think it's important too even what you're saying about, you know, when leaders do egregious things and that comes to light.
Yeah.
You know, how does the church in plurality respond to it, right?
I think there is also that sense of one person or a group of people doing wrong things because of sinful desires, sinful passions, being exposed kind of then shows, well, how does the church as a whole respond to that and help the person heal?
Is that a place that you can stay once you find out, okay, we all still agree about what's good and right and what honors God and what doesn't and how we're going to live our lives and how we deal with the evil among us.
Yeah.
And so I do think it's important to kind of – even though leaders do represent the church in one way, the totality of leadership is different than the one person.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
So it is – again, it is really – you'll have to figure out how do I rebuild what's been broken.
And this really puts – we talked about this a couple episodes ago.
It does put sort of the distinctions of what does it mean to forgive?
What does it mean to trust?
These are two different things too with the church of like I can forgive people and not trust them in the same way.
So again, I would – you have to be able to tell the truth about all these things.
And I think often that's the hardest part of this.
It's how do I tell the truth about what my experience was?
Because when you hide – when things stay in the dark, they just fester.
Right.
They just get worse.
And having walked through it, I can see the sort of worst fears of telling the truth about things.
God is always going to use it in some small measure to purify his people, to help everyone wake up to the nature of sin in their own lives.
You know?
But again, we're a cross and a resurrection people.
So it's both always.
It's always going to be real painful things that happen and real victory that comes through them.
And I don't know how it all works out, how it all intermingles.
But that – I mean, that's why the centerpiece of our faith is cross and resurrection.
They can't be separated from each other.
And that's what – that's what the church feels like to me.
It feels like a very much like there's utter humiliation and agony and there's utter bliss and joy and they all mingle together.
But I still think on the back end of having seen this up close and personal, having gone through it myself, I just still see Jesus' promises to build up his church.
And he's going to keep doing that even through the darkest times.
I think you can trust him to do that.
But again, it will take time.
If you take principles and propositions and doctrines and flatten them out and you don't think about – but you're a human in a timeline that things are not going to happen instantaneously, you'll grow unnecessarily discouraged when it's like – but I'm not better in six months.
It may take longer than six months.
It may take years for you to get back to a place if you've had real significant hurt in the church.
But I think, again, it's worth the waiting back in, having other people help you do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I agree with all of that.
Peterson said, of course, there'll be hurt in the church because there's sinners in the church.
But then he said, but there's no other place to be a Christian.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I know some would disagree with Peterson, and you can argue with him in glory if you would like.
Yeah.
But more and more, I'm persuaded by that, that gathering in local manifestations and assemblies of Christ's body is where you grow as a Christ follower, which means you're going to have to expose yourself to hurt.
No, it doesn't mean you have to be irresponsible.
Yeah.
And it doesn't mean you have to suck stuff up.
Right.
I do think we do need to do some work in terms of actually exploring what a human church leader is.
Yes.
And what we should expect from them.
Right.
Because I think, and church leaders have done this, and I've been part of this culture, you know, growing up.
And so I see it.
We love to set ourselves apart and build platforms.
Right.
Instead of being in and amongst our people.
Right.
But then everyone seems very surprised when we fall off platforms we're never supposed to stand on.
Right.
And we build machines that then build these really unsteady platforms.
Right.
And I'm like, I do think it would be better if we just had an understanding of we're saved by grace sinners living together in community.
Right.
And yes, there are leaders who are called to be exemplary, but they're not called to be other.
They don't get to escape fallenness.
That's right.
But because of that, we need to keep a close eye on their lives, which means they shouldn't be separated from us.
That's right.
Through a high platform where we can't see the secret areas of their lives.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
So they should be confessing all the small areas of sin in and amongst us, and that should be expected and received with grace so that it doesn't build up to the big toxic, oh, my goodness, I can't believe how appalling this person.
Oh, yeah.
Because we've never seen any of the steps along the way.
That's right.
And yes, they like the platform and we kind of like building it.
And so, yeah, Val, I'm trying to piece through all of that in the modern construct of evangelicalism and being in a multi-site mega church, which I love, right, and has so much humility.
But in the midst of it, I'm going like, how do we not just keep repeating this play and then being really surprised?
Well, yeah, and I remember in counseling.
My counselor looking at me and saying, talking about this, that hero idea of people like big, strong heroes to go lead them and people like being that hero for them.
Oh, yeah.
And I'm already said that for me.
But on the cake.
That was so much of my experience of it is there is – it's intoxicating to feel like the strong one who can lead through anything.
So validating, right?
And it's also validating for people to go everywhere else may be broken, but we got these.
I'm associated with this guy.
This guy.
Yeah.
And that was actually – when my panic attacks and all things happened, that was part of it me realizing was – You can't be that guy.
I can't be that in every situation.
That's right.
And having to come to the limits of that, the ability of like, oh, I can't just carry through every situation.
I can't just have a stiff upper lip and always be able to have the right answer and lead through any situation.
But also it was seeing the inverse relationship of it of going, but also the reason I like it is because people like it because you get applauded for that.
And I think that is where there is something about the leaders in the church that are meant to be, like you said, examples and not like power mongers in that way or hero.
And that's the thing I think we have to – probably in every local context has to sort out for themselves of the church does need actual spiritual mothers and fathers who help the church grow up.
But I think that's where it's the family idea.
Right.
I don't know how to parse through it other than it being more familial and going – but how would you do this in a home?
Right.
Instead of it feeling like how do I do this as a C-suite?
Right.
And I think that's the only image that I have of like how I think about it is like how would I want this in my – which I think elders are meant to be men who can manage and lead their own household as well is you know how to operate in a family context where, listen, I have every bit of power over my son.
So you think.
And it doesn't mean you need to listen.
So you think.
So don't listen.
You know.
That's right.
And I think because there's a heart level to it.
And so I'm with you, Roz.
I think that's part of this dynamic of how do we find our way in a time that – it always makes it hard.
But I think the size and scale, particularly of our church, you have to really work hard for it.
Yeah.
And I think we are, but I think you have to really work hard for it.
Yeah.
And just to be clear, Val, just in case I wasn't – obviously, like you've both said, there are different categories of leadership failure.
I think you've got some good language around this and I think that would be really helpful because I don't think we need to treat all failings the same.
So maybe your language of categories I think was very helpful.
Yeah.
And to not overlook those things but to also have even in our own minds not everything is to that level.
Right.
Not any fallacy, not any error that a leader might make is in the same category as the worst category.
Yeah.
But some is.
But some is.
And needs to be treated differently, right?
It is.
It is.
Well, and I mean I'll even say this for myself because your category is a family.
And you actually have a longer leash I think of expectation for like you get your parents are going to hurt you.
You get in their leadership they're not perfect.
Obviously, that's maybe something you come more to terms with as you continue to get older.
But I think about this experience for me at the Austin Stone of being young in my faith.
And I've shared a little bit about this in a previous episode but just being at a place where I was stuck in sin that I quite literally could not get out of.
And the leaders of the church came around me and helped me.
I feel like in some ways I was drowning and they threw this life preserver to me.
And I will say looking back I can say not everybody did everything perfectly right.
Like there were some things that were said.
There were some like wounds that I got in the process that I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a little rough.
Wish it wouldn't have gone down exactly like that.
But at the same time, it's kind of like the life preserver hit me on the way to me.
But it was all well intended.
It was all well meaning.
And so I do think there are some ways where even as attenders, as people who are going to be all in somewhere to be partners of a church, there's some sense of saying we want the same things, we want to help each other, and we all are at varying levels of maturity in how we respond when we're trying to help.
That's right.
And so when we think about our own suffering to say just to have as long a leash as we can for the things that are small, for the things that are, man, he said that wrong.
And I wish he wouldn't have said that.
And it really hurt me.
We talked about it, but we can move forward, like to just normalize relationships that, like you said, they're not filled with people who are infallible, but who are inevitably going to wound you along the way, hopefully in small ways, not the most egregious of ways.
And so I think that's how you stay a place for a long time, you know, is that you make it okay for us to not be perfect alongside each other.
And maybe just from the perspective for our listeners of a church leader, so I haven't done this for a very long time, but 20 years is not nothing.
I'm just so aware of how many times I've failed people, but I've failed them in the category of my own fallenness, right?
Like I wasn't wise enough or attentive enough or present enough or thoughtful enough or, you know, didn't follow through on something.
These are just part of being a fallen human being.
And for those things, I want to confess those and I want us to be a community of grace, right?
I do know, though, there's going to be categories of things where I go like, oh, I fully anticipate in that category I should be fired or prosecuted or both, right?
Exactly, exactly.
And the key is how do we keep ourselves as humans walking together in the former categories and grow together in those and don't get ourselves to the other ones?
That's really good.
The church is messy, but she's ours.
Yeah.
Well, and maybe one last thing as we're thinking about it.
I think there is a unique relationship between the church and its leaders.
I always think about Corinth and Paul.
And like Paul is a phenomenal leader and Corinth is awful.
Oh, yeah.
And it has – and it's not a – and I think that's part of it too is for people who are not leaders in the church in a formal capacity.
There is a dynamic relationship between a church and its leaders.
And it's not just like – because I think sometimes what happens too is we can make it seem like or we can feel like the leaders have all this ability to make things happen.
That I'm – I tell people all the time, I go, you think I have way more authority than I actually do.
Like this is all self – you all chose this.
I have no ability to make you do anything.
Right.
You know?
And I do think there is a dynamic of the church will become some mixture of the leaders and the people working it out together.
And I think to your point, Rodney, that's a really helpful thing for everyone to remember.
The health of a church is not solely dependent upon the leaders of that church.
Because, again, Corinth – Paul is a great leader and they are broken and they won't listen to Paul.
Yeah.
And so there is some sort of, hey, we're in this together.
And that's why I think the family language is helpful is because you can have great parents and kids that don't listen to them.
And, again, I hate – sometimes I'm using that metaphor.
It can feel pejorative.
I don't mean that like the churches are kids.
Right.
It's more of that dynamic of it is a two-way street.
And I think sometimes leaders are uniquely broken and sometimes leaders are a reflection of the people that are following.
And so I think that's where for all of us to take on the agency to go, the way you have a healthy church is by being the kind of person you would like that church to be.
Because if you try to – because this is where we get into like controlling each other.
I want to control how you respond and you want to control how I respond.
You're like, we're all wasting our time.
If we just all focus on how do I contribute to the healthy church that I want to be a part of, I think it's part of the getting out of the hurt is I'm like, well, let's start building something good that we can navigate together instead of always feeling this unknowable thing we'll never find.
I'm like, well, at some level we can find a little bit of it.
And so – and that's why I'm hopeful about even this – what God's been doing in our church is the ways that he has been pruning everybody.
I don't think it's just leaders.
I think he's been pruning everybody to know what does health actually mean and look like.
And it's for the church to know, I need to know what kind of leaders I should follow.
That's right.
And it's for leaders to know, I need to know what kind of leader I should be.
You know?
And that's why I love Jesus' commitment to his church because you can see his hand working in a thousand different ways.
We're all over the map.
That's right.
So, again, I think it is worth saying to build something beautiful always requires the whole church together to do it.
And not any one of us can do it on our own.
Okay, Tyler, what I love about your answer is it really nicely sets up kind of what our next question gets at, which is people in the church who want to support others.
We're a healthy congregation.
We want to contribute.
We want to be a part of this together.
How do those with stronger faith who aren't maybe in a season of suffering at the moment, who aren't being challenged in that way, how do they come alongside those who are?
Because I think there's always that question of do I send a message?
Do I send a door dash?
Like how do I do it?
You always send a door dash.
Yeah, the answer is always door dash.
But like what else?
Right?
Like what else plus door dash?
Yeah, I think the church is meant to be a people of presence.
And I don't think you can overstate when you're going through suffering just someone being present and attentive to you.
I think it's obviously prayer.
It's encouragement.
It's logistical things like how can I help you with meals and those kinds of things.
But I think it highlights the importance of when you go through suffering, it's hard to make friends when you're going through suffering.
Oh, gosh.
And so much of going through suffering is you're going to lean on the friends you've already made.
And I think the best way for the church to be set up to help each other with suffering is to make sure we're prioritizing.
I don't know how you follow Jesus faithfully and make it through how difficult life can be if you're not learning how to make, keep, and remake friends.
I think it's one of the hardest things about growing up, growing older as a person is life transitions and challenges and people move and people have kids or people move jobs and people move churches.
And it's so hard.
So when suffering comes, you're like, but who are my people?
Right.
And I think when you're suffering, the last thing you want is someone you don't know trying to help you.
Right.
But I don't know another way.
Right.
You're going to have to learn how to receive that as well.
And so I think you want to have those friends that you're like that are seasonal friends or legacy friends or how do I prioritize that?
Because, again, when it comes to helping people in suffering, have a longer runway in mind.
I know this has been everybody's experience, but I think as a pastor watching this, when people go through acute challenges, everyone rushes in.
Right.
It's who's going to be there in month two, three, four through a year.
So if you're if you're close to somebody who's going through intense suffering, I think it would be why.
And this is I have learned this to failure.
I think it would be wise to go.
I need to have them in mind for the next year.
Let me just have in my calendar once every couple of weeks.
I'm just going to text or call and know the person.
I'm looking at Ross.
I know my brother, Ross.
You know what Ross is not going to want if you're going through suffering from me?
Five minute hug.
Or phone call.
I know my brother.
He's going to want to text because he wants the ability to, like, let me engage when I want because I want to be able to thoughtfully engage.
I mean, I want to talk today.
That's OK.
Right.
Other people I know a phone call is going to mean more.
The people I know me being at your doorstep is going to mean more.
That's right.
But I think but it's basically going, I'm just going to make it a point to every week.
Just call check.
And I've had men do this for me and I've really appreciated it where I'm just going to call you every Wednesday at noon.
Yeah.
And you don't have to answer.
Yeah.
But I'm going to call you.
And if I can be there, great.
If not.
And sometimes you don't answer as the one suffering, but it's so nice to know people are for me.
Yeah.
Because, again, the initial everyone rushes in.
And I don't think people should feel bad about that.
There is something about, like, brothers and sisters are born for adversity, but a friend loves at all times.
There's something about that sort of relationship that happens.
So that's what I would say is presence, knowing the person, encouragement, prayer, all those things, but having a longer runway in mind and building into friendships now.
So when the suffering comes, you have people to rely on.
Yeah.
I'll say the same thing.
If you're in the position of being able to care for someone, small things on repeat over time.
Yeah.
You know, we want the one big grand gesture.
Yeah.
That can then go like, I did.
I did it.
Right.
Small things on repeat over time.
I would say to those needing to receive care, and this is going to sound self-serving, Val, but be very cautious of having categories of whose care matters most.
You actually do want care from people who know you.
Right.
And I have a particular mandate as a church leader to care broadly, right, and to show up more broadly.
But I don't think we should be too quick to evaluate, did a church care for me based on which particular stage platform leaders showed up or didn't.
Right.
Because truth be told, they may have lesser ability to care for you well than your friend who never gets on stage, but who's part of the same church.
Right.
Who's actually going to care for you so well over a period of time.
Now, I do think it falls on church leaders to check in, and I hate it when I fail at that and I want to be better at that.
But I think sometimes people feel hurt because they go like, I anticipated something of you, even though you're a relative stranger to me.
And I'm saying that I received it from no one because I didn't receive it from you in particular.
When sometimes then you look around and go like, you've actually been really well loved by 20 friends in this church, and that should be celebrated.
That's right.
That's right.
That's really good.
We have one more question I want to get to, and I think this is a great way to end.
And I think for a lot of people, and there's a lot of reasons it comes to their mind this way, there's an image of God in their suffering, in their doubt, in their questions, where he is just, the posture is disappointed.
The posture is that he is just this close to walking away and abandoning us to our own detriment.
And I don't know that that sentiment comes from the scriptures.
In your mind, what fuels those images in us, and are they right?
Or how is God's posture towards us in our doubts and our questions and suffering?
Yeah, I mean, he's near to the brokenhearted, and he binds up those who are crushed in spirit and stays true to them.
And it's hard to believe those scriptures in the midst of being brokenhearted or crushed in spirit.
But that is what's true of God's character.
And when I struggle to believe those words, then what I'm drawn to, again, is the example of Jesus Christ.
He doesn't stand off far from suffering, but enters into the midst of it.
And I just don't see another worldview that shows us a God who enters into suffering at such a visceral level and says, now I'll be your sympathetic high priest.
I know what this feels like to a degree that actually, even at your worst suffering, you won't even get to.
And I know, and I won't leave you, and I'm near to you.
And I just got to get back to the image of Jesus and the extent he was willing to go to, to enter into suffering with a broken world.
There's just nothing like him.
There's not.
The image, I think, of all time is a broken reed he will not break, a smoldering wick he doesn't put out.
Just that idea of a broken reed that has no real value.
It's just a reed.
And yet he's like, I will make sure that I'll put my hands around it in a tender way that holds it together.
Or I'll put my hands around a smoldering wick and make sure that the wind doesn't put it out.
And so I think there's always been a tenderness to him.
And the way I would think about it is he's a comforter and that he comes to us in our struggles.
He's a sufferer and that he knows what it's like to have suffered more than you.
He's a promiser who actually gives you big promises to lean on and cling to when you're going through it.
And he's a leader where he's going to say, and I'm actually going to take you through this and teach you through it and help you know how to navigate it and give you wisdom and give you people and all the things that he produces.
But there's always a uniqueness of God's promises to the weak and the brokenhearted because there's something about when we're needy is when we're most apt to see God for who he is.
And so I think that's where suffering has always been unique in our lives because it cuts through the facade that I'm strong, that I have anything together.
Right.
Yeah.
I just, yeah, as you're saying that, I'm just saying there's, I've just had moments of suffering in my life where all of the things that I run to for comfort in other times, easier seasons, like they just can't, they can't help.
And there's just the way that God can meet us in those moments and do things that no book or show or podcast or even sometimes friends, like there's just ways he can meet us in that place.
And so the fact that he's willing to and that he does just should vanquish that image of a disappointed, angry God because those are incongruent.
Right.
Well, thank you guys.
Thank you for that.
And with that, we are going to close out this episode of Questioning God.
If you'd like to hop into the conversation we're having about Habakkuk, you can do that at any one of our six congregations that meet across Austin.
Be sure and like and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss our next episode, our final episode.
I can't believe we're to the end where we look at God's response to Habakkuk and how that change, how that changes Habakkuk in the process.
We'll see you then.
Bye.
Bye.